First let me commend the admin for these excellent rules - bravo!!! I assume, though the rules did not state this explicitly that non-combat range is only when
a force of ships is assigned the CRUSE order and the other ranges are for all other types of orders. Is this accurate?
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Regarding the naval range rules
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 Kara Stormcloud |
Regarding the naval range rules |
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Posts: 36 (July 2, 2009 8:25 PM) United Kingdom
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RevengeInu |
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Posts: 705 (July 2, 2009 8:32 PM)
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Indeed -- unfortunately there will be a consquence to these rules. Seeing as how we entered this war with Japan under the preassumption that we could actually
reach the Japanese territory, this now puts us in an entirely new situtation. Suddenly, after naval conflict, our vessels can no longer reach each other -- we
are stuck, and in an perpetual state of war. This new 'rule' has damned the Triple Alliance. Unfortunate, and entirely convient for Japan.
So this is how the world ends, not with a bang ... but a whisper ...
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Ulo988 |
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Posts: 985 (July 2, 2009 9:38 PM) Japan
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I can see the logic in them, and of course accept these new rules. However, like Rev just said the timing of this implementation is regrettable.
"We live together, we act on, and react to, one another; but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves. The
martyrs go hand in hand into the arena; they are crucified alone. Embraced, the lovers desperately try to fuse their insulated ecstasies into a single
self-transcendence; in vain. By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude. Sensations, feelings, insights, fancies - all
these are private and, except through symbols and at second hand, incommunicable. We can pool information about experiences, but never the experiences
themselves. From family to nation, every human group is a society of island universes."
-Aldous Huxley |
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Kara Stormcloud |
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Posts: 38 (July 2, 2009 10:31 PM) United Kingdom
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I would like to propose in the consideration of fairness that this new rule, while wonderful and necessary, not be in effect for the Triple Alliance or Japan
in the currently on-going Pacific War. Neither side would have partaken in this conflict if these conditions had existed prior to their choices. I would agree
that any new war even if entered into by the same parties in another arena should be under these rules even if that war is concurrent with the Pacific War.
Rules are about fairness and and the current conflict is a disaster of impossible physics if these rules are forced upon those parties at this time.
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Frankenfur |
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Posts: 273 (July 2, 2009 10:40 PM) Germany
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I'm going to protest the implementation of these new rules. They are unfair. While they make sense, and seem appropriate, I must object to them for many
reasons.
1) I am engaged in a war that is based of naval rules that were loose. I'm not saying the implementation of these rules are wrong - these rules make sense. But the facts are, I engaged in a war on the opinion that I -could- effectively harm Japan. For two turns I've been able to operate near Formosa, and yet now I'm unable to? My navy shouldn't even be in the Pacific under these rules. I can't even send it back home! The facts are, these rules place me at a disadvantage that is almost ridiculous and makes me engaging in this war entirely impossible. 2) I would never have begun this particular part of warfare, or chosen this path, had these rules been enacted and made clear from the beginning. Its unfair to implement them, especially as they are so one-sided. It allows Japan to just move its forces elsewhere and laugh at me, I can't even touch it. Had these rules been written before the war started, I'd have chosen a different tact - how I began the war now seems useless and foolish, since I can't harm Japan. The paths I'd have taken up to this point would not be the same. 3) Players abused the absence of these rules in 1901, but this loophole is closed beginning in 1902, the current extended turn.I object to that, as it can only be aimed at me, considering I'm the only one who's moved mass navies across the world at this point. To say I've abused this lack of rule is also unfair - I've been in constant communication with you via AIM. Because of the lack of rules, I've always asked, "Can I get here?" and "Is it possible to get my navy here?" You've told me yes and no, and based on your answers I've written my orders. 4) These rules, effectively, determine the result of this war. Tactics, planning, things that have been in motion since minute one of this war are now useless. Options that have been available before are no longer available. I effectively have to sue for peace, go home with reserves and riots and people dying of disease and say, "Tough luck, maybe in a few dozen years we'll get them back!" I'm not of the best state of mind so I can't think of more reasons, but I'm sure I'll be able to come up with more on how these rules are biased and unfair pertaining to the situation. I don't disagree with them, they're good rules, but the timing could not be worse or ever more unfair. The facts are, had they been enacted BEFORE the war, I'd be able to respond and have planned according to them. Now, however, I'm not able to, because rules have been implemented AFTER I've taken action.
The law governing fatal antagonisms reads: Reconciliation is out of the question. Only one side can win, and it must win totally. - Robert Greene
Your enemy wishes you ill. There is nothing they want more than to eliminate you. If, in your struggles, you stop halfway or even three quarters of the way, out of mercy or hope of reconciliation, you only make them more determined, more embittered, and they will someday take revenge. They may act friendly for the time being, but this is only because you have defeated them. They have no choice but to bide their time. The solution: Have no mercy. Crush your enemies totally as they would crush you. Ultimately, the only peace and security you can hope for from your enemies is their disappearance. - Robert Greene |
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perspixx |
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Posts: 4246 (July 2, 2009 11:06 PM) Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
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seems like a fair request as it pertains to Formosa
Last Edited By: perspixx
July 2, 2009 11:09 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Kara Stormcloud |
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Posts: 39 (July 2, 2009 11:11 PM) United Kingdom
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Thank you so much Mr. Perspixx. It is always nice to see logic and fairness prevail. It is with exceeding grace that you make this exception, thank you.
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TipTravHoot |
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Posts: 152 (July 2, 2009 11:16 PM)
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I think everyone would feel a lot better if we could get some sort of exhaustive ruling about how the rules changes are going to be implemented with concern to
the German-Japanese affair. Are there exceptions? If so, what are they? Does the new rule effect the status of the war? If so, in what way? Certainly, I
don't believe you should have to work on this over Independence Day weekend, but perhaps sometime next week. In the meantime, let's everyone try to
stay calm and wait to see the implementation notes.
For the record, I support the new rules. As the war began and started to take shape, it was not clear to me how the TA was able to traverse the Indian Ocean and operate in Formosa from Batavia. Having a clear standard on naval range will be very helpful to the game. Good change. |
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RevengeInu |
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Posts: 706 (July 3, 2009 7:31 AM)
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I agree with others -- this Triple Alliance-Japanese War should be grandfathered into this deal. These new Naval rules would apply to everything else, save the
current war. If I say, declare war on Mexico next turn, I'd have to abide by these rules -- but if I sent a new fleet to Batavia, for the TA-Japanese War,
then they should not.
That is entirely fair because if the Japanese had attacked with those rules in place -- our responses would have been different. So this is how the world ends, not with a bang ... but a whisper ...
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RevengeInu |
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Posts: 707 (July 3, 2009 8:38 AM)
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Actually if these rules will ONLY allow us to hit Formosa -- I would go as far as to demand the entire ordeal, excluding the attack on Tsingtao be ignored.
This war was never even possible, and now we're stuck in a Twilight Zone verison of it. Impossible to win, but if we loose, you'll cripple us at home.
So this is how the world ends, not with a bang ... but a whisper ...
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 schmid3 |
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Posts: 1396 (July 3, 2009 1:20 PM) France
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Ill just say I think the new rules are good and realisitic. But something should be done to make the Pacific war fair. I dont know if that means grandfathering in the war under the old rules (or even what that would mean as ive heard there were range restrictions before and the war didnt really even make sense under those), rewinding to the attack on Tsingtao (which I dont like because it would undo one of the major storylines of the game) or maybe just having the Kaiser and Emperor come to some sort of agreement to end it as is, or maybe something else. But im sure Dylan will do what he thinks is fair, like Trav said we should all not hyperventilate and wait for his decesion.
When I want to know what France thinks, I ask myself.
-Charles de Gaulle |
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perspixx |
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Posts: 4247 (July 3, 2009 3:23 PM) Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
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I don't have to grandfather anything. The Triple Alliance has a way to reach Formosa under the new rules; I already talked to Frank about it, and about
other potential targets. I consider this resolved.
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Frankenfur |
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Posts: 274 (July 3, 2009 3:54 PM) Germany
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For all purposes, the situation's been dealt with fairly. No objections, and I just wish to reiterate to make clear that I agree the rules are both
necessary and good. I just wanted to be able to operate the war under the conditions that existed before these rules were made, that would make the war
inoperable before. As we've compromised, all is well.
The law governing fatal antagonisms reads: Reconciliation is out of the question. Only one side can win, and it must win totally. - Robert Greene
Your enemy wishes you ill. There is nothing they want more than to eliminate you. If, in your struggles, you stop halfway or even three quarters of the way, out of mercy or hope of reconciliation, you only make them more determined, more embittered, and they will someday take revenge. They may act friendly for the time being, but this is only because you have defeated them. They have no choice but to bide their time. The solution: Have no mercy. Crush your enemies totally as they would crush you. Ultimately, the only peace and security you can hope for from your enemies is their disappearance. - Robert Greene |
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Olivia Clemens |
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Posts: 788 (July 3, 2009 6:38 PM) Flower Girl |
hip
hip hoo-ray! |
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King Francis |
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Posts: 350 (July 3, 2009 11:42 PM) |
Ive been sitting here watching this whole thing unfold and trying to decide what to do and say about it. Getting gradually angrier .
First off, to start with, I interpreted the rules fairly closely to the way they are now specified as evidenced by conversations I have had with various players about how badly I could hurt Germany and vice versa . I assumed the ranges were a bit more than they are but still. I have assumed that even to get into the Pacific Germany has had to secretly reach agreements with France or Great Britain or Spain to use their ports to get into the Pacific. Perhaps this is not the case, perhaps it is. Secondly. I agree with Frank that the implementation of the new rules might be sort of inconvenient and unfair considering the war we are engaged in. The timing was really bad. Thirdly, as there has been apparently conversations between Frankenfur and the Admin about where he can attack and at what targets, I would like to know about whats been said and when. Im not suggesting there has been an impropriety but in the interest of transparency I feel I need to know.Also, what is the compromise that has been reached ? Regarding re-winding to before Tsingtao, I dont agree to that because I could strike Tsingtao with the rules as they were interpreted before. I have always assumed that the strike on Tsingtao would be about as severely as I could get back at Germany for stealing unless I got help with coaling stations from other nations. So anyway Im not sure how I feel at this point other than totally resenting the semblance of back door dealings and smoke filled rooms between the Admin and Germany. Again, Im not accusing anyone, but at this point I need to know what the heck going on. How'd they get all the way into the pacific to Batavia, but suddenly cant go from Batavia to Formosa ? And how will the ways of waging war now be changed? There is alot that needs to be explained.
The night approaches,
darkness on Mt. Ogura where the deer cry out and in their voices calling is it autumn on the wane? |
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Frankenfur |
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Posts: 275 (July 4, 2009 1:21 AM) Germany
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What is said between me and Dylan is private. What I know and you don't, and thus ask Dylan questions concerning that, is relevant only to me. The facts
that they may perhaps be about you may not make you happy, but there are, once again, things I know that you are not, at this moment, privy to. Thus, you
won't be getting any transparency. You will not know what's been said, or when.
However, there is no conspiracy against you, which I am of the belief you think. The compromise that has been reached is that this isn't being grandfathered. The war will conduct under these rules, except concerning Formosa, where my fleet before could reach but under these rules couldn't. By doing this, it allows me to continue to operate there. Dylan has solved this situation, there is no rewinding. Dylan, and I, believe this situation resolved. You don't need to know how I got to the Pacific, nor do you need to know how I'll be waging the war now because of these rule changes. These explanations you're not supposed to know.
The law governing fatal antagonisms reads: Reconciliation is out of the question. Only one side can win, and it must win totally. - Robert Greene
Your enemy wishes you ill. There is nothing they want more than to eliminate you. If, in your struggles, you stop halfway or even three quarters of the way, out of mercy or hope of reconciliation, you only make them more determined, more embittered, and they will someday take revenge. They may act friendly for the time being, but this is only because you have defeated them. They have no choice but to bide their time. The solution: Have no mercy. Crush your enemies totally as they would crush you. Ultimately, the only peace and security you can hope for from your enemies is their disappearance. - Robert Greene |
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Ulo988 |
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Posts: 986 (July 4, 2009 1:51 AM) Japan
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Ok, I am sorry, but I am still confused. If I had known that our war was contriscted only to Formosa there is now way in hell I would have become a part of
this fiasco. It not just about how you got to the pacific. I have a fairly large stake in this that as far as I know has been wasted.
"We live together, we act on, and react to, one another; but always and in all circumstances we are by ourselves. The
martyrs go hand in hand into the arena; they are crucified alone. Embraced, the lovers desperately try to fuse their insulated ecstasies into a single
self-transcendence; in vain. By its very nature every embodied spirit is doomed to suffer and enjoy in solitude. Sensations, feelings, insights, fancies - all
these are private and, except through symbols and at second hand, incommunicable. We can pool information about experiences, but never the experiences
themselves. From family to nation, every human group is a society of island universes."
-Aldous Huxley |
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RevengeInu |
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Posts: 711 (July 4, 2009 6:06 AM)
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Ulo speak with my on AIM or MSN regarding your concerns -- I can shed some much needed light upon them.
So this is how the world ends, not with a bang ... but a whisper ...
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TheDesertFox1 |
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Posts: 37 (July 4, 2009 9:05 AM) Roumania
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The war will conduct under these rules, except concerning Formosa, where my fleet before could reach but under these rules couldn't.So the range rules do not apply to forces operating around Formosa? Perhaps I just misread what you posted Frenkenfur. If that is the case then I apologize and you can disregard the rest of my post. If the agreement reached was that forces involved around Formosa are exempt from the new range rules, that isn't really fair either. My suggestion would have been to set a time limit before the new rules took effect. Until that time was reached, the old rules would remain in effect with the new rules coming into play at that date with no exemption. That way every gets a fair warning, a chance to move or adjust as needed, before things were cemented. |
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Frankenfur |
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Posts: 276 (July 4, 2009 10:21 AM) Germany
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I'm just going to let Dylan argue this.
The law governing fatal antagonisms reads: Reconciliation is out of the question. Only one side can win, and it must win totally. - Robert Greene
Your enemy wishes you ill. There is nothing they want more than to eliminate you. If, in your struggles, you stop halfway or even three quarters of the way, out of mercy or hope of reconciliation, you only make them more determined, more embittered, and they will someday take revenge. They may act friendly for the time being, but this is only because you have defeated them. They have no choice but to bide their time. The solution: Have no mercy. Crush your enemies totally as they would crush you. Ultimately, the only peace and security you can hope for from your enemies is their disappearance. - Robert Greene |
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TheDesertFox1 |
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Posts: 38 (July 4, 2009 11:05 AM) Roumania
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ah heck the issue is already decided. My main concern was making sure I understood your post Frankenfur. Anything after that was just my .02 cents.
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